No prayer

How the mania made Tim Tebow too toxic to talk about — or to hire

ESPN The Magazine: Tim Tebow
Prim Siripipat and ESPN The Magazine’s Senior Writer Dave Fleming discuss why Tim Tebow cannot find a job in the NFL.


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19 Responses to “No prayer”

  1. Thrawn says:

    Talking about Tebow has gotten to be dangerous at times. The emotional investment in his success/failure has hit an all time high for just about anyone on the planet with the polarization.

    There are now like four different topics that have to be avoided in the workplace now. Race, religion, politics… and Tim Tebow. too often the latter turns into a conversation of at least two of the three if not all three.

    • Sage says:

      It is a time of sharp cultural and political divide. One’s opinions about Tebow are an effective litmus test for any number of other opinions.

      I won’t–and probably couldn’t–identify all of the ideas that are attached to Tebow. But for me, one prominent link involves “experts.” I generally hold so-called “experts” in contempt. Those who place all of their credence with “experts” are feeble-minded, while those who assume the mantle of “expert” typically lack the humility and wisdom to see the shortcomings of their knowledge and to see their vulnerability to bias.

      As self-anointed “experts” demand more and more control over the economy, our lives, and even over the planetary climate, they expose themselves as idiots.

      Tebow and his situation are a prime example of this divide. Right now, the “experts” are winning because they hold positions of power and can thwart Tebow simply by keeping him off the field. Many of Tebow’s supporters know that the “experts” would be proved wrong (again) if Tebow were given an opportunity to start at QB with a supportive organization.

      • Larry says:

        I agree & well said.

      • Thrawn says:

        Are there really any “experts” left? An expert by definition is someone that knows more than the rest of us, but just about anyone from the hater or lover camp could recite his NFL stats off the top of their heads. Dude has been analyzed to the point where half the population could recite his underwear size.

        It is interresting to see people point to “experts” and call them out on their “bias” like you did. But I can’t help but notice from fans of Tebow like yourself, that just about any talking head that isn’t high on Tebow is some sort of an idiot, a hater, biased…. They don’t know what they are talking about. Yet you guys will embrace a guy like Steve Young and Mike Ditka as if what they say are gospel simply because they say nothing but positive things about Tebow.

        Face it, people on both sides are about as biased as a politician at their party convention. There are very few independents on Tebow. This is why I can only shake my head when someone pulls out the “bias card.” I use the partisan politics analogy, because that is what the Tebow debate seems to have become. Some see five minutes of miracles as Tebow being something great and special. Others see it as minutes of fail and getting bailed out by a defense allowing little and keeping him in the games. Both sides are watching the same game, but BOTH sides keep forgetting the other side has merit too, which is why this debate has been raging on well after a year since he took his last snap as a starter.

        • Sage says:

          Dude, you pointed out how Tebow has become a non-speakable topic, and I responded with a bit about how the Tebow topic that rests atop many of today’s lines of political cleavage.

          So, I pointed out experts tending to lack wisdom to recognize their own vulnerability to bias. The very notion of being “expert” does imply objectivity and ability to see beyond mere personal interest and preference. There is some false advertising in this concept of being an expert.

          Where did I deny having vulnerability to bias myself? Can you point that out, please?

          Partisan politics? Do you imagine there is any other kind? Whether Tebow would or would not succeed as an NFL QB is not a question that can be resolved with moderation. It’s a yes/no question, and you can’t change that. And don’t say I’m only speculating, because of course I am. Duh.

          • Sage says:

            Okay, I guess it’s not purely a yes/no question. After all, we can debate whether Boomer Essiason was a successful QB. I would say yes. But whether Tim has the skills to win is largely yes/no.

            Is there any QB who consistently wins without help from his defense?? What an impossible standard Tim is up against.

          • Thrawn says:

            Never said you denied having a bias, but in a round about sort of way, pointing out someone elses bias IS exhibiting bias of your own. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

            …and NOBODY is holding Tebow to the impossible standard of winning without a defense. Just pointing out that many (including myself) see it more as the defensive effort paving the way for victory in MOST of those wins in 2011 while te offense punted the ball away most of the game. Glad to see 10 offensive points were enough to win the game, but a lot of people seem to WANT to put it mostly on Tebow’s shoulders. I don’t see it that way.

            But you know what? That debate on who did the most to carry the way to the playoffs doesn’t matter. What matters right now is the opinion of the next guy to write Tebow a paycheck. I’m thinking if more people saw things your way, he’d be on a roster about 5 minutes after he was released… if not on another roster long before having traded to get him. Or better yet, he’d be starting for the Jets or Broncos right now with the Bronco not even bothering to go after Manning.

          • jason says:

            For many years when it comes to people and experts I’ve noticed that when a person agrees with the view of an expert then they consider them an expert. When a person disagrees with the expert then they’re “so called experts”.
            Being right on some predictions doesn’t mean a person with vast knowledge about a subject isn’t an expert because we are all wrong about things and make mistakes at times.
            What annoys me is when experts bend what they see to fit an agenda they have like in political issues.

          • jason says:

            Sorry I meant “being wrong on some predictions…..”

        • The Mascot Army says:

          The “bailed out by the defense” crowd typically hasn’t seen half as much (if that) of Tebow playing as the “he’s good” camp. The “bailed out by the defense” crowd usually don’t like or watch Tebow and are VERY reliant on highlights and “experts” as substitutes to actually being informed. They don’t realize that most of the “experts” have watched as few of Tebow’s games as they have. And as Sage said, the experts don’t realize their retread biases.

          Sage, you speak from my heart on that “expert” analysis.

          • Thrawn says:

            Ummm, no. The “bailed out by defense” crowd saw the entire games. The ones reliant on the hilights are the ones that thought Tebow was on the money all day. When fans like me are pulling our hair out because the defense got the ball back, and we punted it away after 3 to 5 plays AGAIN, it is much easier to see when sitting through that.

            Don’t get me wrong, I LOVED the last 5 minutes of games. I LOVED that about Tebow that he could rise to the occaision and become (in Champ Bailey’s words) “A different Tebow.”

            What I don’t get is how you can sit there and tell me that I and others are reliant on someone elses analysis or some hilight of one hopper pass that missed by a mile. I saw every snap he took as a Bronco and overall, didn’t come away all that impressed… UNTIL usually the last drive or two… and that is IF they are still in the game from being a rather anemic offense.

            Nice comebacks, but overall I graded him at about a C. 5 minutes of work being his saving grace. The highest QB rating in the last 5 minutes… but it DID follow the LOWEST in the first 3 quarters. (A biased analysis would have only pointed to one of those and ignored the other.)

            Like it or not, the defense did bail out the offense quite often by keeping the other team from racking up too many points until the offense FINALLY got things going.

            i do admit, I hadn’t watched him play a down in college other than some other (selective?) HILIGHT on youtube or something like that.

          • jason says:

            When I base an view about any player its from watching as much tape as possible and not look at just this or that play because if every play isn’t counted then any player could be shown as great or awful. Highlite reels are for entertainment and that’s it in my book.
            I don’t consider myself an expert and never will but I try to learn from how they study and break everything down since that’s how all the coaches and scouts do. I pride myself on being a student of the game.
            Its always fans that pick and choose how great someone is based on select plays and dismiss others.

            Plus I miss very few games and go online to watch coaches tape on games and record all the games during the season to watch through the week and offseason.

          • The Mascot Army says:

            You’re trying to tell me that the Tebow fans have watched less Tebow than the people who think Tebow doesn’t belong in the NFL? That might be the least believable thing I have read this year.

            Yeah, and people who love American Idol watch it less than I, as a hater of american idol who has seen entire episodes, do (sarcasm).

            Most bigtime Tebow fans have watched every game he has played since his freshman year in college, and probably even wasted their time watching the Jets lose last year too.

            What are you talking/writing about? Give it up now before you have gone over the cliff.

            Denver fans are Tebows biggest fans among all NFL fans…why? It’s precisely because they can believe their own lying eyes over the experts, the echo chamber, and the cherry picked highlight reel.

          • The Mascot Army says:

            I loved the last 5 minutes of those games too…when they finally got away from foxball. That’s just a coincidence too I guess. It’s easier to believe that Tebow magically changed his skill set as opposed to believe that a more aggressive, less predictable game plan opened things up.

          • Thrawn says:

            ummm… you DO realize I AM a Bronco fan right? That might have something to do with me seeing every snap Tebow took as a STARTER since the only team he started for was the Denver Broncos.

            Just a thought, yeah?

            Foxball? Not a huge fan of that, but on the flipside, the last 5 minutes of games, the other teams usually go into soft prevents too. That might have helped too. props to Tebow for capitalizing on that, but no, I don’t believe had they just let Tebow air it out like they did at the end of games that he’d turn into an All-pro.

          • The Mascot Army says:

            I do know that. All you prove is that there isnt unanimity among broncos fans; i never claimed that. There were gator fans his freshman year who liked leak better too, and said all tebow could do was run. Yes, that is how old the same knocks on him are, and that is why his longtime fans know better.

            Teams ddnt go into prevent mode as often as you imply. The jets didnt when he beat them. The main difference was the broncos were finally less predictable in the last five minutes.

            As a broncos fan, you do remember that the broncos were abysmal before tebow, right?

            And why are you raising the bar on tebow that had thy let him air it out he would have to be an all pro or a failure? He was effectively a rookie who had never practiced with the ones, or had an offseason, and who just lost his number 1 wr on the second worst team the year before, coached by the guy with the worst record, a team that was 1-4 to start th season. And the teams last five games had a hurt and ineffective von miller and the defenses qb was out as well. Do you typically expect all pro performances from guys put in those situations? You are completely unreasonable.

            And you are probably at the peak of tebow knowlege among the haters, and a lot of your critiques still fall short. The typical hater pundit is you divided by two. Why anybody lstens to any of them is a mystery.

          • jason says:

            Army you do understand that a checkdown to pass is part of the offense they ran and that tim ran his whole career. He was allowed to pass but missed the reads.
            Go watch coaches film of tim in those games and you’ll see he had open wide outs that he didn’t even see because he would tuck and run far too quick if his prime was covered the moment he looked and rarely every saw the whole feild and his darts and checkdowns.

            Fox isn’t great don’t get me wrong and I don’t like his style at all but when you watch every play and take bais out of it you can see that tim completely screwed up on many plays as far as QB skill set goes. You have to get past if he won or lost because him getting a job is based on every single play and those bad fox plays are very much viewed as ‘did he execute them as the play was drawn up’. I don’t look at comp% but the adjust view of it. Did he put the ball where it was designed to be placed, proper read of the coverage, seeing the open ings between coverage and awareness. That might not seem important to you but everyone in the league that can give tim a job looks at that not the last 5 minutes because they don’t want to rely on the last 5 to win. Reality is they will at every play. They want the same from 1st to last snap. EVERY PLAY MATTERS, its not an agree or disagree issue its and issue of if you want the job you have to be able to do it the way the people in charge want it done. Its why practise is greatly important regaurdless of how any fan may feel. I know chuck norris and brandi don’t understand and view every aspect of the league but its how it is and its not gonna fade anytime soon or even close though some people get upset about things when many more millions love and drive the product even fans of tim that as much as they love tim they also love the NFL and will stand behind it with or without tim. Millions of christians aren’t gonna boycott the NFL because of what happened with tim no mmatter how hard some people want that. It will grow this season as it has for years intotal.

          • The Mascot Army says:

            Everybody misses reads, even Brady and absolutely the three rookie qbs last year. And running instead of throwing to a check down isn’t a detriment. They kept the tight ends in to block for pretty much the entire season, and some of the biggest fourth quarter plays were to the tight ends, when they were finally used.
            Tebow was effectively a rookie on a crappy team with horribly predictable play calling, and he did ok.

          • The Mascot Army says:

            Even if he was the first player in the history of the nfl incapable of improving, he would still be good enough to start on at least a couple nfl teams. throw in that he will most definitely improve, and the nfl groupthink is blindingly obvious.

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